Curse

Day and Night · Sep 10, 2007, 04:36 PM // 16:36

I disagree with some some statements in author's post, but agree with some too.

Quote:

The answer is actually simple: People are not going to buy Guild Wars 2 otherwise.

Don't speak like you are everyone, please. As for me, i believe in ArenaNet talent and going to try Guild Wars 2 anyway. Despite of what GWEN is. Actually, i think that too little resources were thrown into GWEN development. That is why there are some shortages (like armours and too fast paced last part of plot).

And about all "hardcore" questions asked - i have one main answer, which, i'm sure, is the same as ArenaNet's could be - GWEN is dedicated to an average player. Not hardcore like you, which has all heroes equipped.

fenix · Sep 10, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

7. ) Design 40 armor sets, you have X months to do this. Devs just didnt have time to come up with proper armors.

I dont really mind, for me it means that i can be unconcerned about that reputation grind since all you really need is to get one character to r3 (to get access to perfect salvage kits).

Only Paragon norn armor is somewhat interesting, mostly because all other paragon armors sucks more.

8. ) Just give them few months.

They did it for Factions and Nightfall, why the difference now? They had virtually the exact same timetable. And even so, Gaile has said that while they work on a chapter, they're already working on the next. Which means they had a year to design 40 armor sets? Give me a break, of COURSE they had time

smrandom · Sep 10, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

I have to disagree with the OP. I have enjoyed each chapter as it was released and am quite enjoying GW:EN at the moment. I have completed all the quests for the main storyline, as the OP has done, but find many of the quests replayable (I think that's a made-up word) with friends and alliance members who are doing it for the first time. I have done about half the dungeons and have enjoyed doing them, even if some of them aren't so difficult that it takes years of your life. I just got new armors yesterday and didn't feel the grind was especially onerous. Maybe it's just that killing Charr over and over again never gets old.

I don't know what was "promised" to the OP, nor do I know what he/she expected (except from what he/she posted). I am sorry that he/she is continually disappointed with each product, but he/she doesn't speak for me.

P.S.: to those who are concerned with the seemingly insurmountable amount of reputation needed to purchase armors, etc.--you get reputation for certain titles by doing dungeons. For example, after doing the main storyline and all three dungeons and a few quests in the Charr Homelands, I had reached Rank 4 Ebon Vanguard. Getting to Rank 5 didn't require much of a time investment after that (especially in a Siege Devourer). My point is that you can get to these ranks by just playing the game, instead of finding a farming route and doing it over and over again.

Taki · Sep 10, 2007, 04:40 PM // 16:40

EDIT: Removed ref to deleted post.

I know that many players who have been around for a while share the same concerns as the OP. They express the same views in-game, on this and other forums, and on IRC, though not as eloquently. I have also gone over much of the questions raised in the past.

About HM for eotn, I don't think they're holding it back intentionally; much more likely that it's not even finished yet.

Dungeon/NPC rez'ing I understand is needed to make the game more enjoyable for the casual players. Look around and you will see the amount of players struggling/failing eclipses those breezing through the game. EoTN seems to be the most challenging expansion/game yet so that's expected.

The same model/reskinned armors are disappointing though. Whether lack of effort or time only ANet knows.

I must say that EoTN had a lot of fun and interesting moments. The same can't really be said for Factions or Nightfall so it's not all bad. Hopefully the OP also found something to enjoy during the mad rush to complete the game. If not, please take the time to get the most out of future entertainment.

Big_Iron · Sep 10, 2007, 04:43 PM // 16:43

I’d just like to reiterate what someone else pointed out. Anet never advertised GW:EN as and elite expansion, but rather a high level one, where you can only play in it if you’re level 20. That’s all.

I’d also like to point out that if you’ve been paying attention over the last two years, as I have, you’ll notice that Anet did just what people have been asking for. People complained they didn’t want to keep NPC’s alive for the mission to succeed. In GW:EN, you don’t have to. People complained that after spending hours on a quest or mission, they’d get wiped by a single mistake and would have to start all over again. Allowing rez in these quests, addresses this complaint.

GW:EN was made with the average player in mind. And frankly, it’s still a little tough for the average player, but doable. And please don’t tell me you’re average. Anyone spending 11 straight hours on a game is hard core.

Someone quoted Jeff Strain on this thread. To paraphrase, he said that the people posting on the forums and sending letters to Anet are the hardcore, elite players. But the average player doesn’t go to the forums or even visit their web site. And the average player is the vast majority of the player base. They have to create a game with the average player in mind while trying to produce something that will challenge the hard core gamer. That’s not an easy task to undertake.

Burst Cancel · Sep 10, 2007, 04:49 PM // 16:49

One of the problems of game development is that the casual player kneecaps high-end content. The casual players pay the bills, because there are so many more of them. If you make large portions of a game impossible for all but the most hardcore, few people will want to play it, the game fails to sell well, and Bad Things happen.

Unfortunately, catering to the casual players in order to make sure the bills get paid does mean that the game stagnates, especially in PvE environments. In PvP, the game typically evolves as fast as the players do, provided the design team leaves things the **** alone - the best players come up with overpowered strategies, which forces other to come up with even more overpowered strategies, etc. (until the designers just step in and change the game - therefore removing the need for people to actually adapt, which causes the game to stagnate). PvE is static by definition, and the difficulty is determined entirely by the design team, rather than other players. Therefore, we run into a serious design issue - if I make the game really, really hard, it will force people to get better at the game (which is good); however, only a small fraction of the playerbase will care enough to do so (which is bad); end result is that all casual players quit. On the other hand, if I make the game easy, players never have to get any better and the game stagnates; however, this is perfect for casual players, who typically don't invest the time and effort to become better anyway, and casual players are where the money is.

The take-home point is this: you can't meaningfully improve a game by catering to the casual crowd, because they always require a perpetually low bar of difficulty. Hardcore players will always find such a game easy, and will bore easily unless given something else to do (e.g., grinding, which has been amply discussed elsewhere). However, you can't cater to the hardcore players if you expect to make much money. It's a lot easier for competitive games to get around these issues, because, as stated above, the players you compete against define the difficulty, but most PvE-type games simply can't find that happy medium.

Symeon · Sep 10, 2007, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

There is exactly one elite dungeon. The rest are same as Sorrow's Furnace.

No. One of the eighteen is a minigame, another is a fifteen-minute level 15 snowman-blasting run (effectively a minigame as well), and another, Ooze Pit, is a single-level dungeon. Now, ANet advertised that there would be eighteen, 'sprawling' multi-level dungeons. They lied. Most of them are tiny. They are not comparable with Sorrow's Furnace at all.

Quote:

Because it is. There are just no absurd environmental effects, or mobs that spike with 500 AoE damage or similar nonsense found in DoA. The dungeon is Elite, but balanced. Play smart, and it's easy.

He's not only arguing that this dungeon isn't worthy of its 'Elite' rating, but that there should be more of its difficulty level or higher. I agree with this.

OP, a good post putting across many valid complaints. I still play the game and enjoy it, and I admire ANet for their achievements with Guild Wars, but Nightfall and EotN have brought numerous disappointments for me, including those that you've discussed here.

Lauryn · Sep 10, 2007, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Not everyone is as good as you, you need to remember that.

Yes I agree with some points of the OP especially the resurrection of NPC allies (when on earlier interviews it seemed like if they died, they would stay dead and you would no longer have a 'guide' or such) and the fact that there are quite a few armour reskins.

I would say I am an above average player, I used to dabble in PvP and got myself rank 4 Hero (albeit over 2 years ago) I have 3 sets of prestige armour on my main character and 1 on another. I have a variety of titles, but few maxed. Yet probably most of the player base do not even have this, I find GW:EN hard in places and I don't mind admitting that, so really is it too easy?

Should an expansion be limited to the top 10% who play the game?

Dunlop · Sep 10, 2007, 04:58 PM // 16:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by WoodyDotNet

Anyone spending 11 straight hours on a game is hard core.

Actually that was just to beat the game, they played more afterwards and first thing when he/she woke up

I agree with your point. I was once a psuedo hardcore (I thought I was hardcore until I met the 16/hour day 7 days a week gamer). Then I had family and the time to invest in a hardcore game is not there.

I bought GW because I have become the "average" gamer, I really enjoy the depth there seems to be in the game (I've only been on for a week so am still a noob) but also the pick up and play mentality. When I log in I try to find people to group, if not just go out and do it with henchman, I do not have an hour to wait for a party to form...

Had this game been more suited for the hardcore, it simply will not sell and without recurring subscription fees, it would be a flop.

for the OP: There are many MMORPG's that are more suited to the harcore crowd, is it that you like the GW universe or simply don't want to pay monthly fees?

zwei2stein · Sep 10, 2007, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

They did it for Factions and Nightfall, why the difference now? They had virtually the exact same timetable. And even so, Gaile has said that while they work on a chapter, they're already working on the next. Which means they had a year to design 40 armor sets? Give me a break, of COURSE they had time

Creative exhaustion. After three chapters on same shedulle, people run out of interesting ideas.

People can come up with great designs, but you gotta give them time to get ideas.

BTW: You cant really compare other chapter armors for one reason: 15k armors were just rehashes of their 1k equivalents. Everyone was fine with it back then.

Besides, they could have spent their doing other models. 10+20 Hero armors. Countless unique models for Asuras (pay close attention to them, pretty much every named npc there has unique face and clothing) and Norns (it seems that asuran/norn clothing is in fact draft for gw2.)

Vanquisher · Sep 10, 2007, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lauryn

Not everyone is as good as you, you need to remember that.

Yes I agree with some points of the OP especially the resurrection of NPC allies (when on earlier interviews it seemed like if they died, they would stay dead and you would no longer have a 'guide' or such) and the fact that there are quite a few armour reskins.

I would say I am an above average player, I used to dabble in PvP and got myself rank 4 Hero (albeit over 2 years ago) I have 3 sets of prestige armour on my main character and 1 on another. I have a variety of titles, but few maxed. Yet probably most of the player base do not even have this, I find GW:EN hard in places and I don't mind admitting that, so really is it too easy?

Should an expansion be limited to the top 10% who play the game?

Fortunately, to succeed in PvE, you do not need to be anywhere close to "good".

Griff Mon · Sep 10, 2007, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Jeff Strain's speech made more sense to me.

I know entirely too much about this game- and it is easy for me in PvE. Even new monsters with new skills are easy to figure out. Then I think back to when I was first playing and spent weeks trying to get past Thunderhead Keep or some of the desert missions. The game was not that different then, there were just less people who knew what skills to use or how to play. Now I can blaze a new character through in no time.

There are still a bunch of new players out there who are still trying to figure out how to get past the Charr and make it to Pikens Square or are till using Starter Armour in the Shiverpeaks or selling black dye at the merch for 1g piece.

We look down our noses at these people and if they entertain us a bit with their chatter we offer them some help or revel in the moment when they see us raise a Flesh Golem the first time. The PvE game is designed for casual players and if you spend a lot of time at it, it will be too easy for you.

I like all the games and the expansion and will continue to play them. Tweaks, buffs, and nerfs come and go and you adapt, and design is what it is, meant for the casual player.

Sha Noran · Sep 10, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

I understand and respect that the current content is challenging for many, and you must understand that I am not asking for it to be made harder. As I said in my post, a good deal of my concerns would be answered with the release of Hard Mode. I do not find the rezzing in dungeons or even the revival of team allies to be unreasonable in normal mode, but there must be a more difficult alternative for players who are ready for more difficult content.

My concerns have almost nothing to do with loot, either.

I am interested in being challenged, and I feel that Hard Mode will supply that challenge. Quite simply, I'm interested in hearing a reasonable estimate for the release of Hard Mode, and I'm simultaneously encouraging better community relations from ANet's side.

Thank you for your comments so far (aside from the obvious trolls and flames), I hope the civil discussion and flowing of opinions can continue.

IslandHermet · Sep 10, 2007, 05:13 PM // 17:13

I agree with your post and think Anet should and needs to read and think over what is going on in todays GW community, if they done GW 2 will be in dire need when it is realesed and i do not want to see the GW franchise Fall like soo many other MMOs and it will if they keep on the trend set with the disapointment felt from GW:EN.

I am Frustrated with the Lack of HARD MODE for i have acheaved tier 8 couragous delver, tier 8 norn, tier 8, asura, tier 7 workin for 8 agent.
i do apoligize that anet is not expectin people to get so high so fast but i really dont care to much for the stoy line after the 1st time through and i am workin for tier 6 KOBD title track and do not feel right that i have to wait till Anet wakes up and instates a Hard mode.....all i have to add to this waiting to max a title cause Anet did not realese Hard mode yet and has Said nothin about it Yet gives me a unsettling feeling in my stomach.... Im worried that they will wait 1 month or more to release Hard Mode....

For all those people who are wondering how to get so high so fast...Delver=Snowman cave with H/H no pauses inbetween runs and groups the more you pause or wait or go afk the longer it takes, Norn Vijerin Falls or how ever you spell it get every shrine boost kill everything I use H/H cleared entire area only takes roughly 30-45 mins depending on pauses Slows and Afks you will yeald 4-5k points from this area once you receave Hunt bonus do NOT LOSE IT, Asura Magus Stones Clear Everything Grab all Shrine Boost if you do not take any breaks or stops run takes 20-30 mins yealding 3-4k Points..... Vanguard Sagnoth runs take from 30-45 mins and yeald 3-5k depends on boost from shrines and Hunt bonus.
Sorry for adding this in here but It is most likley I will get someone PM or Posting asking how did I do this.

Lonesamurai · Sep 10, 2007, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Ok, as others have said, this is guild wars, not "average joe MMO" or WoW...

We know Guild wars like the back of our hands or the inside of our helmets and the only people that I know in my guild and in real life that are really enjoying GW:EN are the 5 new real life friends I introduced to guild wars in the last few weeks because they see it all as one big game... hell, one is a mission monkey and beat prophecies, Factions and nearly nightfall in 2 days of gaming and then jumped onto GW:EN on release day and is still enjoying it because to him, its all the same game...

Its more of the same, and some of use here have been playing since the beta's, but its those of us that have found other things to do and are playing guild wars as the casual game it truly is are the ones that have racked up 5000ish hours but are still happily playing, as we go and play other things and come to guild wars to do stuff with friends/guildies/allies...

I think we seriously need to chill a bit and realize that there is more to GW:EN than meets the eye and that we won't see those benefits for another 18 months/2 years until Guild Wars 2 is released

glountz · Sep 10, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

IMHO, they will implement GWEN's HM soon, but they are still busy with GW2, and just finished GwEN.
I'm fine with the normal mode difficulty. Yes, seriously. Mobs have actually great builds, yes you can counter them as you can predict them once you encountered them, but their builds are a lot better than Prophecies/Factions/Nightfall ones.
The "ELITE" dungeon will be quite a challenge in HM I think.
But I would be glad if A-net implemented HM-specific missions/quests, with high-end loot as rewards. Some quests that are only available for HM, and that are very, very challenging BUT offers also unique rewards (like unique skin max collector weapons). Or make NM repeatable quests in HM a lot harder but more rewarding in terms of plats.
But if you're truly looking for challenge, do PvP. Try to be in Top 100 in GvG. You'll see that's a real challenge.

pkodyssey · Sep 10, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

Specifically to address Hard Mode. I believe they will release it later to renew interest to "hold us over" until GW2 is released.

To me....

Hard Mode = "Twice as Slow Mode".
or
Hard Mode = "Boring Mode".

There is nothing "Hard" about hard mode. The AI is just as stupid.

Lets see:
Step 1 - Send in the heavily prot'd tank or similar.
Step 2 - Draw aggro to a choke point.
Step 3 - Nuke the crap out of everything.
Step 4 - Pick up white drops.

Rinse and Repeat

PLEASE CHANGE THE DAMM AI so that they are not so stupid. I like getting the crap beat out of me by a tougher/smarter mob the first time, it makes me think about my build and new ways to utilize new combinations of skills.

I could care less if 90% of the community couldn't do it. There is plenty for non-hardcore players to do. Most non-hardcore players probably haven't done everything in all 3 campaigns to even think about a hard-mode.

[/soapbox]

X Cytherea X · Sep 10, 2007, 06:01 PM // 18:01

about the destroyers not having healers, i think that is part of their being badass mother$%&#ers

traiur · Sep 10, 2007, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Well I just finished reading all the posts in the thread (there arn't an incredible amount of them but most are well thought out and still deserved my attention and time). First of all I would like to point out that I am absolutely ecstatic about this topic. No not because I hate GW:EN, no not because I hate Arenanet, and no not because I like to argue. I am stoked that this topic has been started because of the level of discussion that can be brought into the topic.

I would agree (bear with me) that I am disappointed with a large section of the GW:EN content. I am an armor RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO at heart and was disappointed that I would not be adding to my collection from the new armors. I am also a big fan of boss battles, most specifically the ones that make you sit there hands flying over the keyboard, nose an inch away from the screen, sweating heavily....and you still loose, and curse the world, your party, and finally anet for the idiocy of such an overpowered boss. I've always enjoyed figuring out how to defeat these bosses. I would learn from others in the game but I would refuse to use gwwiki until I had at least beaten the boss once.

Now. Its quite obvious (if not from the above statements than from the fact that I am even taking the time to post in the forums) that I am not an average player. I am not exactly a well known name in GWguru but I have been at the least, an avid reader since I discovered that the site existed. I play both PvE and PvP almost equally. So while I used to be called a hard core GW player, I have moved on. GW is still a game I play regularly but I havent pulled an all nighter with her in a while.

However, back to GW:EN...and being disappointed. So as I stated I was disappointed with the expansion. For a while. And when I say a while I mean until I really started looking.

GW:EN is full of little references and inside jokes that only the old timers and hardcore GW geeks would possibly remember or understand. Sure some of the monsters weapons and armors are reskins, but then you get to see Gwen yelling at a char, or see Cynn pouting in the background as Mhenlo flirts with another monk npc.

It was this discovery (more specifically how I discovered it) that changed the way I viewed GW:EN. A new player to the game (I really should say newer since "new" players cant actually be completely new to GW:EN) was asking why "the fire ele henchy was pouting" I look over and there she is pouting as Mhenlo is off talking to the prot henchy. I quickly explained to the newer individual and went on my way.

My toons Ordel and Maiti can now be found wandering the countryside searching for references to the older games and to GW2. The sheer number and the care with which the devs placed these references is just astonishing.

Now it is true that I haven't exactly refuted any of the statements made by other people. However I thought I would attempt to spit out my opinion in between lunch and going off to my Diff Eq class and attempt to show what GW:EN has given us that the other games never really did.

Also, as it has been stated GW:EN (atm) is more of a struggle for the average player and is a breeze for the elite commandos of presear. However, keep that in mind as you play. Perhaps retire your heroes for a while. Reopen the all chat channel and look around, find a newer player, and offer them some help. Sometimes they say no, but most of the times they graciously thank you.

Other than that all I can say is that GW:EN is an adventure. It was stated that only the developers have a say in what a game's PvE is. To an extent this is true. However, you are still the player. And the player will do what they will in a game as diverse as GWs is.

Sorry for adding another long post that isn't quite as well thought out as the OP (which I wish to say was very nicely stated and I applaud the creation of the thread). I felt that noone had mentioned the things that I just have and I felt that they needed to be mentioned.

Good hunting fellow heroes.

ksalanpang · Sep 10, 2007, 06:07 PM // 18:07

I didn't rush to the end of the story. But I've to say the story is way too short. I didn't realize until I'm at the central xfer chamber finishing the last mish. I was like lol. I wanted more. Or at least a longer story. GWEN basically has the same story as Faction's; Finding people to unite and fight the evil monsters.

What i've been doing was just farming those Asuran, Ebon Vanguard, Deldrimor points. I just think that there's not much depth in this expansion. I mean yes, Dungeons are cool. But i expected more.

I totally agreed. Why are those destroyer weapon so easy to attain. I mean just 5k and some material, that's it. O.o That's just not right. It's just not even a rare loot.

I like the Norn, Asuran weapon they offer in game. It's just awesome to use their weapons up to your taste.

Like many of you said, the armor is just reskinning. I mean it's just the same from previous campaigns. Noooooooooooo... You know a lot of us really look up to what we wear/use in game. I like this game because you can customize basically any gear you use in game for your character. If there isn't anything new, less people will stick with this game. Anet do some Post-Release armors, will ya? Like you did for the Prophecies. That helps!

I'm not a PvE fanatic but I'll find some PvE folks to pve with. Heroes are just broken...once again...I beat the game basically with henchies + heroes. Correct me if I'm wrong is this a Massive Multi-player game???? Only Multi-player part i see is in PvP ><;

GWEN can be better just the fact is they didn't do their best, should I put it this way?